How to lose your Virginity as an art collector

[FineArtRegistry]

This Crime is NOT VICTIMLESS! Billions Bilked From Cruise Customers

I started with his highest valuation, a Picasso at over $70K. I was not working with all the detail that I wished I had at the time. I did not know the names of the art gallery the items were purchased through or much else. Just that much of the art was bought on cruise ships. I found this Picasso (Avec el Gigante et Autoportrait en Bebe-Vieilland) to be auctioned at Sotheby's for between $5K-$7K or about 1/10th to 1/15th of its valuation. Apparently, it must have been appraised based on the length of the painting's name! I found his Rembrandt The Death of a Virgin valued at $31K had recently sold for a price of around $10K at Christies. After The Death of a Virgin what I began to see was the death of a virgin art collector's investment.

...Read the complete article here: This Crime is NOT VICTIMLESS! Billions Bilked From Cruise Customers

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[viper]

First I'm not a lawyer. So pls talk to a real lawyer, just as everyone should talk to a real art expert before buying cruise ship art. Of course in the case of cruise art auctions... people were led to believe they were dealing with honorable experts. Go listen and get educated on ART!

But I have been involved in cases involving fraud/knowingly made misrepresentations and etc... and I was not the BAD GUY!. Cases where the FBI in the end stepped in. And in my experience they come in very late, at the point when you think they are not going to do anything and after all the discovery has been done. In white collar matters they seem often to wait for the problem to be solved in civil court until the problem becomes too big for that and the complaints too numerous. Keep calling... But When the FBI does step into a suspected fraud case, that also generally ends refunds...

AND to the FBI, who I'm sure is montoring this site which is doing much of the leg work for them..... well remember Consortium International out of St Paul! Its been awhile but here we go again! You would think one major scam a life time would be enough! Will package up a bunch of stuff for you on this one too! And this is even BIGGER and longer ruinning!

When is Park West or the cruise ships going to notify their customers of the past decade that they may have purchased FAKE Dali's! There should be a court order, since they dont seem to want to do the right thing that an honest business would do! The Cruise ships received money from the sale of Art Fakes,,,, Park West had no problems advertising and telling everyone they were NOT Fakes! Dont they owe the public the same when its clear they are FAKES.

There are several things that people runnings scams always have in the contracts, IMHO...


1)The first of which is... verbal repesentations dont count. This is limited protection because almost every contract has that clause. Its lawyer boiler plate. No one would likely ever get convicted of fraud if that really was the case ... a prefect defense as some would have you think. In fact it can turn on the scammer when it is surrounded by self serving attempts at protecting them against their own actions.

If you go to a roofer to have a roof done, every contract by every roofer has the same boiler plate including that if they damage your house while putting on the roof, they are not responsible.. if the roof leaks and ruins your furinture and etc, they are not responsible...

If you tried to do business with roofers who did not have those self protection clauses ... you would never find a roofer... When you go to court, there is often a different verdict.

Airlines have policies against their employees drinking, that does not mean when one drinks and the plane crashes, the airline is not liable for the actions of their employees even if against company policy!

2) It appears the auction gallary now fines its employees for doing "BAD" things? Do they then send out letters to people who were sold art while these BAD things were being done, telling the buyers for example that ... the appaisals are just to defraud insurance companys down the road and not real valuations or that this art is not for investment purposes? Did they in the past ten years have large signs up saying that this was not investment art and that their appriasals were really of no value and not to be relied on? A simple solution they did not take... why?, because sells would plumment!

Or do they just maximize their profits by paying less to their staffs do to fines, while the customer may have been now knowingly misled and the sale money is still pocketed? Sweet! Its also proof that they know that what people are claiming is likely true... where are the signs even now?

Have they sent this information out to their 1 million satisifed customers.. to see if they are still satisifed after learning the truth that this was not really investment grade art (should not be bought for investment purposes) and the appraisel did not really reflect fair market value. Have they sent out a mailing to everyone they have sold a Dali to telling them they may have a fraud thats worthless? Taking them off the ship is good... taking them back from their customers is what is really required. Or that their prints may have been done on a photo copier.... Wonder how many happy customers they would still claim?

3) Every long running major scam,IMHO attempts to keep running by paying off victims who complain loudly until the end and including in the refund a gag clause. At some point it becomes clear when enough instances occurr that there is pattern, this is not just the occasional mishap or disgruntled customer that the scammer always claims long after it is nolonger believable. Buyer remorse is not when some one pays 50K for something worth 5K, thats called being made a sucker and taken advantage of.

That gag clause when its relatively clear that something oderous is afoot has as much weight behind it as if you were to sign such a clause to get back your child from a kidnapper or if you signed an agreement with a gun to your head, IMHO. One could argue at the point you become aware that something illegal/shaddy may be going on, that you must in fact not aid by helping to hide the activity leading to other potential victims... and come forward. Doing one's civic duty hardly ever cost anyone in front of a jury, IMHO. Pitty the person who takes you to court because you were trying to protect others.. like those in the jury. The amount of evidence appears IMHO, to have past that test now. Sniff...pew

4) In my past experience, the scammers hirer the biggest law firms who deny all until a payment is missed in order to frighten others and lend an air of crediability to their enterprise.

5) At some point one brave soul stands up, says enough and can not be kept quiet. The threats of personal destruction dont work. The scammer to keep it going attacks the messenger... Once the crack in the dike starts, more come forward... The credibility of the initial whistle blower soars and more now speak out while the crediability of the scammer.. a giant who was going to crush the lonely whistle blower, plunges against all odds. Truely a David and Goliath story. In cases of being taken, those in denial or who did not want to admit they were "fooled", begin to come forward in greater numbers, now surrounded by others who also got fooled. We are getting very close to this point now or may have even passed it. How many dont want to tell their wife... "Honey, you were right about those paintings" or vice versa. Or Honey you know those paintings you got in the divorce are almost worthless... Or Honey, little Johnney is not going to college.

6) As the scammers income drops, the ability to control with money ends and those in the inside fearing for their own lives now, come forward. Rats do leave a sinking ship...

7) The ordinary man rule: Would an ordinary man or woman have bought a painting for $50K, that on land was selling for $5K if some one credible had not told them it was worth at least that? Of course not. And would the Gallery being staffed by reasonable people seeing a 5K painting being sold for 50K, not know that something was wrong... of course they would ( and if you did not want that to happen, why an appraisel for $70K)... Would sellers of fine Art, or the largest gallary in the world not know a photcopy from a lithogram and then talk about their expertise in the next breath or that of the guy doing the COA?

Regards

[viper]

In reading the posts I also noted the post where they had an actual PW ad stating that the artwork on board is 40-80% less than on land....

Research I have done is that it can be 15 times higher than the price on land... certainly not less.

This is not even close. And it implies an immediate propfit, that cant be had...

If I'm not mistaken we have cases where the onboard price turns out to be significnatly higher than the price that even Park West has sold its art for on land.

We all can accept a little latitide in advertising... Chevy is not built like a rock... good thing too, since it would not move too well.. lol

But this stuff they say and do is not even in the same universe as the reality....

Regards

[viper]

Does not the cruise line have the responsibilty to post where ever goods or sales are being made on board that normal laws such as consummer protection laws are not in force when the ship is in international waters and thus extreme caution on all purchases are required?

The Crusie lines have been such a willing co conspirator in this scam... what else can you call it at this point?

An entire operation of gigantic proportions setup by the Gallary/Cruise line to deprive the victims of any easy legal recourse. One would not go to such lengths if one was planning to be above board in the first place.

Regards

[viper]

Their defense seems to be they do the business only in international waters....


Well the auctioneers conduct pre sales activity (rustling up potential marks, having drinks with them, contacting some before cruises, arranging for passage) including onboard marketing, on TV, paintings on display inside U.S. waters...

Some say before the auctions, prices have been discussed and how much to bid, offers made such that the actual location of ship when sale is made is a mere formality...

Holding paintings for pickup on deparkation/delivering the product in port. Inventory is moved on board in port...

Is doing business soley defined as where a person signs an invoice... or sales are made, I dont think so...

Many businesses have adminstrative functions in a state where they make no revenue, and yet they are still considered as doing business in those states.

Is a transaction complete until the product and Appraisel are delivered back in the U.S.? Its like an unconsummated marriage until that point.


Regards